Petulant Sale and the incompetent front office

Discussion in 'SOXual Healing' started by y2chae, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. Iwritecode
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    Iwritecode Writing Code Again

    It really is. Considering they knew his stance about the jersey back in spring training. They could have easily set the rotation after the break so it didn't fall on his day. But Sox... :shrug:
  2. Unregistered
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    Unregistered The Facebook of Fucking Cupcake Mod

    Between this and the Seattle tipping incident, Sale is quite the mistreated millionaire. Keep fighting these horrible injustices.
    Stockdale4Veep and sycked like this.
  3. Stockdale4Veep
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    Stockdale4Veep Knows the Dewey Decimal System

    Buehrle?
  4. Stockdale4Veep
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    Stockdale4Veep Knows the Dewey Decimal System



    Sale his next start
  5. Retarded Ox
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    Retarded Ox I wish Quaye would hug me.

    The tipping thing I get, almost guaranteed they tipped these guys under the table so the club didn't get their percentage and the Indians and Rangers have followed and did the same thing. I read the Giants tried to do this last year and the same thing happened and they went back to the old wayou because quite a few teams refused to tip thru them
  6. Fuller
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    Fuller Trump had no ideas, he just went too far

    Someone from the front office should have sat Sale down and said "Look Chris, we are budgeting to get about $1.25 million in revenue from this promotion. That helps keep the lights on and the paychecks coming. If you are willing to cover that revenue loss, then we would be happy to oblige your request to not wear the uniforms."

    [​IMG]
  7. Iwritecode
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    Iwritecode Writing Code Again

    Or they simply could've had Sale start on July 15th. Or the 16th. Or the 17th. Or the 19th. Any of one those days would've made it so his turn in the rotation wouldn't have come up on the day of the promotion.
  8. skottyj
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    skottyj Owner of Many Baseball Hats


    Eaton said that they put everything in an envelope and put it aside until this is all cleared up.
  9. skottyj
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    skottyj Owner of Many Baseball Hats

    I'm just curious as to what they're going to wear tonight. Four straight wins in the 83's.
  10. Zoso
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    Zoso *autistic screeching* Cupcake Mod

  11. IWMB
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    IWMB Resident Umpire

    Hopefully the blaxx.
  12. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    I knew they wore the 83's on Saturday and Sunday and yesterday but wasn't sure about Monday. First time a team has ever worn throwbacks in 4 straight days? Interesting to see if they do again.
  13. skottyj
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    skottyj Owner of Many Baseball Hats

    They can't wear them tonight. Gotta wear the road colors.
  14. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

  15. maurice
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    maurice Gangster of Love

    So...assuming just for the sake of argument that the front office is NOT incompetent, the Sox make, what, 7 or 8 trades in the next couple of days?

    :cantwait:
  16. CaptainBallz
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    CaptainBallz Windowlickin' Good

  17. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    We can only hope. But they are probably under orders from dumbass Jerry not to sell.
  18. Cheeses
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    Cheeses Involuntary Immigrant Cupcake Mod

    My prediction?

    :cud:
  19. maurice
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    maurice Gangster of Love

    JR should be thrilled. They never spent the LaDouche money.
  20. IWMB
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    IWMB Resident Umpire

    Shields?
  21. Stockdale4Veep
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    Stockdale4Veep Knows the Dewey Decimal System

    Can you blame Reinsy? He'll be lucky to be alive to see the end of a rebuild.
  22. CaptainBallz
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    CaptainBallz Windowlickin' Good

    :stop:
  23. Unregistered
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    Unregistered The Facebook of Fucking Cupcake Mod

    Just in case this flew under the radar:

    759380156565876736 is not a valid tweet id


    :soexcited:

    That said, keep Sale. You're not going to get anything close to similar value in return, you're just not — Especially this front office. People just want to see this team do anything, even if there's no plan behind it.

    Instead, go into 2017 with a really solid 1-5 rotation of Sale, Quintana, Shields, Gonzalez, and Rodon. Spend actual money surrounding that rotation with Major League Baseball players. Trim the fat, spend some money. Fire Ventura. Hire a real manager with real experience. Fucking profit.
  24. samram
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    samram Bon Vivant

    No, that is not what people want to see them do. People clearly want there to be a plan.

    That 1-5 is pretty questionable after Quintana. Even if we assume Rodon progresses, it's still pretty much what they had to start 2016. And the plan to spend in other spots is fine, but there's no evidence this front office could do that any better than they could do a rebuild. In fact, there's plenty of evidence they can't.

    Also, do they want to be stuck with long term contracts for the 2017 equivalent of Justin Upton or Jason Heyward? The list of upcoming free agents has very few really good players and almost anyone of note is over 30. There's a reason almost no one is trying to do a 1997 Marlins or 2009 Yankees thing right now and I'd prefer the Sox get with the times and not be afraid to be bad, but improving, for a couple of years. If they can't find the right deal for Sale, that's fine, they can do worse than have a real ace already in place, but that means they need to find a way to turn any other asset they have (Frazier, Robertson, Jones, Cabrera, Shields, etc) into some bundle of talent that makes them good within 2 years because Sale is going to want $35M when this deal runs out and the Sox won't, and probably shouldn't, give it to him.
    maurice likes this.
  25. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    That's a dumb plan. The FA market in 2017 is really thin. The only way to improve is from within. And the Sox finding some position players within the organization to field a MLB quality lineup in 2017:

    :balelaff:

    Blow it all up. No, don't trade Sale and Q just to trade them. But if you can basically raid the entire farm system of the Rangers and Red Sox, it's better than the status quo. Your opinion that the Sox can't get market value is just pure speculation, unless a trade happens we will never truly know what offers were on the table.
    samram likes this.
  26. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Shields, Gonzo and Rodon are still question marks, which is why it's smart to sell Shields and Gonzo when their values are as high as they are going to get right now. Rodon obviously has huge potential but he still needs to figure some shit out.

    Almost all the successful teams right now in the MLB have pretty much built from within. Cubs, Astros, Nationals, Giants, Orioles, Marlins, Pirates, Indians, Cardinals. It's very very very hard to just "buy" a MLB lineup these days. Plus as you said, long term contracts for hitters are probably a bad idea in this era.
  27. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Also standing pat means keeping guys like Frazier who is 30 and a FA after 2017. Or keeping 31 year old Melky who is having one of the best years of his career and now would be the time to sell high on him as well. You can keep Eaton as part of the core as he would still be around when the Sox are conceivably good again (2-3 years assuming they get a lot of close to MLB ready players and the 2016 draft is a hit). Abreu you can keep for now too as his value is low.
  28. samram
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    samram Bon Vivant

    It's weird that they have as many players with some value as they do and they still suck. But that's part of the problem- too many guys who have "some value" and very few good players. 10 years of it. No more.

    If they aren't making LAD, Boston, and Texas submit their biggest and best offers today for either Sale or Quintana, they aren't doing their jobs.
  29. maurice
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    maurice Gangster of Love

    Even if they don't like the offers for Sale and Q, they absolutely have to move the 30+ YO sell-high guys. It's insane to keep them, and a handful of prospects even better than the kid from the Cardinals would improve the system tremendously.
  30. Unregistered
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    Unregistered The Facebook of Fucking Cupcake Mod

    Sale is under control through 20fuckin19. Let's definitely trade him for guys like Profar who are unproven and under control for less years just because "fuck it lets blow it up."

    But clearly, there isn't a plan. That's the problem.

    That's crazy. Shields-Gonzalez-Rodon(2017) is far superior to fucking Latos-Danks-Rodon. That shouldn't even be close unless Shields goes back to being whatever the hell that was a few months ago.

    How much "good" are you going to get out of bad contracts or selling players low? Certainly nothing you're going to see up with the ML team in two years. And especially certainly not with these dipshits in the front office. If we just blow it all up, I guess maybe we can hope to tank it for 5 years and hope there's some legit can't-miss top picks that even they can't fuck up?

    You said it yourself, they have a decent mix of players with value that shouldn't be sucking as much as they do. It's actually not a bad core. I'd be interested to see what a team with A REAL MANAGER, some better position players (read: not Jimmy fucking Rollins) and maybe a real catcher can do.

    Or we can say fuck it, just get a handful of AA relievers and low prospects and feel good about the team saving a lot of money that won't actually benefit us in any way. Shrug.
  31. Unregistered
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    Unregistered The Facebook of Fucking Cupcake Mod

    I said "similar value" to Sale, who is literally one of the best pitchers in the game. So unless you're getting actual MLB players that are going to be as meaningful to the team's success as Sale will, you're not getting equal value. I know that's not how these rebuild trades work, but considering the Sox control him for as long as they do and they don't have to trade him, they can afford to think that way. A couple high-rated prospects that may or may not pan out doesn't qualify in this case.

    When the vultures are picking your bones, it's usually because you know you have no other options. Have there been any recent trades of this magnitude for a young star player with so much contract time left to set a precedent of what to expect?

    Here's a decent way of explaining my case:

  32. maurice
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    maurice Gangster of Love

    Nobody here is advocating selling low or trading Sale for one questionable prospect. The Sox have leverage. Unless they get the motherload in return, they keep him.
    y2chae likes this.
  33. samram
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    samram Bon Vivant

    Who are these better position players? Want Ian Desmond or Carlos Santana for 5/95? Not interested. Teams are signing their good players through their peak years now- the Sox have done it with Sale and Eaton. You don't see many 28 year old All Star free agents anymore. It's not where the game is. Bryce Harper and Kris Bryant are not going to be free agents at 26.

    And no one is saying they should trade Sale or anyone else for AA relievers. That's a strawman. The whole reason to trade these guys is the market is indicating they can get much more for them.

    We'd all love to see new management in place. That isn't happening. So we're just talking about what they could do. They're not going to acquire really good players on a year to year basis. So if they want to spend on a class of player a bit above Frazier, it's signing guys like Desmond or Santana, where you get 2 good years from them and then you pay them as they decline. Pass.
    y2chae likes this.
  34. Unregistered
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    Unregistered The Facebook of Fucking Cupcake Mod

    Then what's the move? Just trade all the mediocre, declining rent-a-player guys on our team that of course everybody in baseball knows are declining for what will surely be nothing of any significance in hopes that we maybe find a diamond in the rough? I mean, I'm actually asking at this point.
  35. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    For this team to be good they needed the 3rd starter to be good. They got that with one month of Latos but it was pretty much a fluke. Rodon has been disappointing and while Gonzo and Shields have picked it up of late, their numbers are still pretty average. Then you have a lineup that can't get on base or hit for power. Eaton and Melky are the only above average hitters on the team. Frazier has pretty much been an one man power show but that's been mitigated by his .300 OBP. Abreu obviously has been a huge disappointment, he has less home runs and the same slugging as Brett Lawrie. Maybe if Frazier was getting on base at .330 and Abreu was having a repeat of his 2014 season the team is 5 games over .500 right now. Just a disappointing bunch of limp dicks, especially after a 23-10 start.
  36. samram
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    samram Bon Vivant

    Even granting that Ventura is awful, I'm not sure they have one of the best cores. They have 2 position players that have any chance of being on the team and being productive when they're good again (maybe 3 if Abreu turns things around). One of those guys is probably a bottom of the order hitter. So they have to find 6-7 guys to fill in the high value spots in the order- that's expensive.
  37. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    1) Nobody wants to trade Sale for just Profar. They want to trade Sale (or Q) for Profar, Gallo and the Rangers top 4 prospects (with maybe Mazara included). Or change that to the Red Sox top 5-6 prospects and Blake Swihart. Yes prospect are unproven, which is why you trade for many highly touted ones to leverage the risk.

    2) Shields and Gonzo are still question marks. They could easily be 5 ERA pitchers starting any day. Trade as the value is high. Also they are 34 and 32 years old respectively. Not pieces of the future.

    3) The Sox have a new scouting director who is highly regarded. Execs around the league are saying the 2016 draft could be special and produce 3 or 4 MLB players. That is a highly successful MLB draft. These scouts are the Cubs no, but for now I'll trust them to make good picks. Also, they've never had a problem drafting pitching.

    4) Where is the team going to find a real catcher and position players? The FA market is weak.

    5) Why do you keep insisting the only return for Sale are AA relievers and low prospects? You seriously don't think the Sox would get the top prospects of the Dodgers, Red Sox or Rangers if he was traded? That's just a strawman to say something like that.
  38. samram
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    samram Bon Vivant

    Thing is this year appears to be a good year to trade guys like that. So yes, they should be trying to trade Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Shields, and Gonzalez.

    So I guess in turn, which players would you like them to acquire to put around the core?
  39. maurice
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    maurice Gangster of Love

    Look at what the Yankees got. Teams obviously are offering way more for Sale.

    Look at what the Sox got for Duke. They can get more for Melky etc.
  40. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    It's a sellers market. The Cubs gave up a top 20, top 100 and a MLB ready pitcher for a rental closer. Sale should get back a MLB ready player or two and 4 more top 100 prospects. If teams don't want to do that, I agree, don't trade him and tell them to fuck off. But right now you have LAD, TEX and BOS to bid against each other. Of course one of them could be taken out of the running if they get Archer and Moore instead but I would think these teams would rather have Sale over those 2.

    Also I can pick out proven players for prospects trades that worked out very well. Colon to the Expos, AJ to the Giants, Teixeria to the Braves, Bedard to the Mariners. Even this past offseason where the DBacks gave up a shit ton for Shelby Miller is already a win for the Braves.
  41. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Yeah you can't really buy many hitters now. Harper may hit the market. But the idea of the Sox signing Bryce Harper:

    :cagelaff:

    With all the RCN TV deals and uptick in national TV money even small market teams can keep their position players locked up long term. The O's did it with Adam Jones, Pirates with McClutchen, Marlins with Stanton, Twins with Mauer, Rays with Longoria, Rockies when they had Tulo, Brewers with Braun
  42. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Yeah if you don't get legit offers for Sale or Q, then keep them but no reason to keep Frazier, Melky, Robertson, Jones, Jennings... why should any of these guys remain on the roster?
  43. Unregistered
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    Unregistered The Facebook of Fucking Cupcake Mod

    I guess the idea is that they have a rotation (granted the back end is 32 and 34, but those are 4 and 5 starters that are at least somewhat reliable), and they've got a handful of players who are decent enough to have good years next year. Whatever on FRAZE, Robertson and the rest of the bullpen for that matter, but if you trade or pick up some other guys to fill in the blanks and replace the manager, it might be worth giving it a shot next year.

    Or you flush it all and see what happens, but what might happen could just be a really sad decade of garbage. I think people are a bit inspired by the Cubs making perfect personnel transactions (minus Heyward) over the last 5 years to become pennant contenders after being the worst team in baseball, when sometimes (often?) you're just the worst team in baseball and you stay that way until you fight your way back to the mediocrity you were trying to escape in the first place. That's certainly my fear.
  44. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Presumably Frazier and Melky can get a much better prospect in return than what Duke got. Robertson and Jones maybe a little better return and Jennings about the same (not to mention you could package in Robertson or Jones with Sale and Q in one of these mega deals). Gonzo and Shields should also be able to return a prospect of equal value from the Duke trade. Too many choices to speculate who they could get. But lets assume a trade with the Red Sox and Rangers get the Sox a record haul for Sale and Q. You could potentially see this team sometime in 2017:

    C/DH Zach Collins/Blake Swihart
    1B Abreu
    2B Yoan Moncada
    SS Tim Anderson
    3B Profar (with Devers waiting in the wings)
    LF Nomar Mazara or Joey Gallo
    CF Andrew Benintendi
    RF Eaton

    UTIL Saladino
    OF Tilson

    SP Carlos Rodon
    SP Carson Fulmer
    SP Anthony Ranaduo
    SP Tyler Danish?
    Really not even worried about the last 2-3 rotation spots in a rebuilding year. The Sox have found random starting pitching talent. Q was a minor league FA. Gonzo kind of came out of nowhere. They are stop gaps for Adams, Guerrero, Hansen, Kopech, Tate and whoever you can get for Gonzo and Shields
    RP Burdi, Beck, Webb, Petricka, Putnam

    Again this is largely devoid of who you could get back for Frazier, Melky, Gonzo, Shields, Robertson, Jones and Jennings which would be decent to good prospects. I sure as hell would be more excited for a youth movement rebuild than another 75 win season stuck in baseball hell.

    And yeah I hope this team goes 60-102 and the Sox get the top pick and load up in the 2017 & 18 drafts. Also spend a shit ton in Latin American FA signings in 2017. I believe the penalty is only 1 year so you can do the same in 2019.
  45. samram
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    samram Bon Vivant

    I mean, you seem to be endorsing continuing this course they've been on years with the hope that a new manager gets them 10-12 wins. Remember the Sox don't have the prospects to trade for anyone better than a Todd Frazier so any plan to fill in the blanks (and there are a lot of them) is basically going to look like 2007-2016.

    And what you're saying might happen with a sad decade of garbage has actually happened anyway.
    maurice likes this.
  46. samram
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    samram Bon Vivant

    Right. And then you can sign a couple 4 starters that have more trade value at the 2017 deadline- remember the Cubs turned Scott Feldman into Jake Arrieta.
  47. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Yes, and the Sox should turn Gonzo a minor league FA signing into a real asset. Some real bums that are no better than #4 starters have been traded for real prospects this year too.
  48. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    It hasn't been a full decade yet but since the last playoff appearance:

    upload_2016-8-1_10-38-57.png

    Pretty much slightly less than average except in 2010, another so close but not quite year and in 2012 when Robin was bunting with Youk and being a dipshit. Then you had the bottom out year in 2013 only to inch so close to mediocrity these past 3 seasons.
  49. CaptainBallz
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    CaptainBallz Windowlickin' Good

    :flush:
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  50. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    And of course there is no guarantee this works but 8 straight years of averaging 77-78 wins, might as well have a few seasons of 65 wins and see what happens. These extra 12 wins the team is getting now aren't resulting in playoff appearances.

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